Back to Square One at The Promenade
It is back to square one for The Promenade. There is speculation that Toll Brothers – home builder of the Terraces and Sorrento – has threatened to sue the City of Dublin in order to block construction of The Promenade.
It seems that Toll Brothers has alleged that the City of Dublin did not provide them with notification of at least one of the public hearings related to The Promenade and that the parking structure planned to be built behind the Mercantile Building and to the west of Building 8 at the Terraces would provide too much of a shadow and impair their ability to sell condos.
If this speculation is true, Toll Brothers’ action is somewhat of a surprise given that a primary selling point for prospective home buyers at the Dublin Ranch Villages and Sorrento has been the future development of The Promenade. Delaying construction of The Promenade would seem to be counterproductive for Toll Brothers’ home sales. This would imply that Toll Brothers could be using the threat of litigation to gain leverage for some other purpose.
The Dublin City Council is expected to rescind their approvals for the first phase of The Promenade during their meeting on Tuesday, May 5, 2009. If approved, a public hearing would need to be held before the construction process could begin again at The Promenade.
7:09 AM on May 5th, 2009
This seems kind of odd that Toll would not know what was going to be built next to their complex. I think that when you build anything you have to submit to the other owners what is proposed. It’s not like they tried to sneak in putting up a building overnight. This was a major selling point of dublin ranch. Toll had to know exactly waht was going to be built there. Either that or someone was really not on the ball, because the grading for the builds is already done. I would bet that if all those units had sold they could care less what was built next to those units. It would be interesting to hear a sales pitch at the terraces, and ask about the promenade and hear what they have to say.
Anyways, this is sad news to know we were so close and now things will have to be redesigned or bagged all together. Sounds like a long delay.
7:11 AM on May 5th, 2009
John are you going to the meeting? I wonder if they will discuss the issues tonight. Keep us informed.
7:35 AM on May 5th, 2009
Hi Anonymous on May 5, 2009 7:11 AM – I’ll be at the Council meeting tonight. The item on the agenda to rescind approval for Phase 1 of The Promenade is on the consent calendar, so it may not be discussed. However, given the gravity of the situation, the Council may pull this off the consent calendar to discuss in more detail for the benefit of those watching live or on television.
Thx, John Z.
8:27 AM on May 5th, 2009
This is awful!! One of the reasons why we moved to the Courtyards is the PROMENADE! They used it to sell us and that was 5 years ago and still nothing. Toll brothers sucks!
9:10 AM on May 5th, 2009
So, is that land totally-and-completely an empty slate now? That is, can it (will it or could it) be redesignated to now be condos or something instead of what the Promenade was promising us all?
If yes, then I vote that it be made into a topless or bikini bar (or adult toys shop).. Seriously- Dublin has shown utter lack of respect for the city residents, why not delve even deeper and just allow anything in that spot–
9:27 AM on May 5th, 2009
I’ve always regarded Toll Brothers as one of the better luxury home builders. Given what I am reading here, I guess they are more KB than TB these days. I have friends who lined up at the Terraces to get in on the Phase I condos. Everyone bought into the vision of the Promenade. When the project suffered through continued delays, Toll Brothers blamed the Lin Family for holding up the Promenade. I guess Toll Brothers is to blame all this time! After half a decode of waiting, my friends simply gave up and moved to San Ramon. Without any retail within walking distance or a high school close by, no wonder home values in East Dublin have taken such a hit like the homes in Tracy and Antioch. Agreed, Toll Brothers does suck.
10:04 AM on May 5th, 2009
I am a Toll home owner at the Sorrento Community and have talked to Toll mangament over the years and gone to the various council meetings until now Toll has not done anything on the promenade to slow down the process. The City has done due diligence with the Lin’s to stop them from building high rise complexes near the 580 area and also from what I have heard is that the TI improvements they were asking for initially in 2005 and 2006 for new vendors were ubsurd and that is shy it took them so long to find a anchor store for the area. That is the reason it has not gone forward. TOll has not done us wrong and we love our home.
10:14 AM on May 5th, 2009
I’m very interested to see what came out of this. They definitely made the Promenade their selling point when I was looking for condos little over a year ago. I settled with Elan, DR Horton even used the Promenade in their pitch.
10:25 AM on May 5th, 2009
We are buying a home in the Sorrento community and are about to close the escrow and move into the home this month. This is indeed a disappointing news. Is there anything people like us in the contract, waiting to move can do about it?
Aren’t people like us in the contract or already living in their community entitled to know beforehand about such litigation. After all Toll’s gripe is they were not appraised of the promenade development. I don’t mean in ethical terms because we all know that’s something non-existent. Shouldn’t we have been legally notified about this by Toll?
10:55 AM on May 5th, 2009
I am in the exact same situation– Ready to move into Amalfi condo at the end of the month, never heard anything about this and now I’m wondering what will become of that section of land— If it becomes something similar to what was proposed, then ok.. However if it’s anything high-rise or worse, more apartments, then that will definitely suck for us.. I am hoping somewhere/somehow the residents will not lose out here—
11:03 AM on May 5th, 2009
My husband thinks we should have a class action law suit against toll brothers for their actions for delaying the Promenade. This is the very reason why we moved into the Courtyards 6 years ago and still no Promenade!!!
12:15 PM on May 5th, 2009
I’m with you. The only reason we bought in the Courtyards 5 years ago was because of the Promenade. Heck – My unit is actually over-looking the dead space. Do we have any rights here?
12:55 PM on May 5th, 2009
There’s too many broken promises with these builders. I have zero faith in them because they promise and don’t deliver. That’s why we bought a re-sale because there was no mystery as to what to expect. Prior to buying this home, we owned a Lennar home. Lennar lied, lied, lied. This is not surprising to me.
2:08 PM on May 5th, 2009
What I have learned is that Toll is trying to protect the Terraces Community from having a parking structure right next to the current building for homeowners. Fromw what I have learned about zoning the Promenade will stay and there will not be a change to where condos go in there. City of Dublin wants a Promenade. I still believe that this will work out and as a Terrace’s homeowner I am for Toll stepping in and trying to protect the community.
7:21 PM on May 5th, 2009
Toll Dublin LLC sucks. Can believe they have the nerve to post fake postings here.
Ya Toll is doing it for the residents of the Terraces, ya with their SPEACIL interests in mind. mmmm maybe MONEY. They are just as bad as KB homes except they just brought their self to a whole new level.
The anonoymous poster should be happy to have a job with a Communist company and probably will see the other side of the light once they get smoked to the umemployment line with the rest of america!
9:00 PM on May 5th, 2009
The mold story is getting annoying…off-topic
Why would you buy a place for a future would-be open mall? I think schools an parks are quite more important…I didn’t buy because of all that empty land future.
In the initial Promenade plan, maybe it wasn’t clear that a bunch of condo owners would end up with few levels of cars parked in front of their bedrooms and patio. You have to think about those on the first floors… I am sure the Promenade can come up with a different plan that will suit all.
9:59 PM on May 5th, 2009
The mold issue is very much on topic, because it goes to show what kind of builder Toll Brothers really is — one that uses deceit as well as bait and switch as part of its standard operating procedure.
I doubt anyone who is following this thread believes that Toll is blocking the construction of the Promenade out of concern for the home owners. A simple search of the public records will reveal Toll’s concern is definitely newly found and not long standing. Only time will tell their true intentions. I will bet those intentions are as ugly as the mold at the Villas. Buyers beware.
10:11 PM on May 5th, 2009
Can someone refer me to any other blogs discussing the class action lawsuit pending or currently in play? Thanks.
11:02 PM on May 5th, 2009
Toll Brothers is only looking out for itself as it is concerned about not being able to sell those affected units. Don’t be fooled that they are protecting you. Had those building already been sold out they would have cared less if a 10 story garage was built there.
In this case, if it is True Toll had anything to do with the delay they just shot themselves in the foot.
5:59 AM on May 6th, 2009
Can Toll cry to the city with a concern of selling the units that face each other at bldg6+8. They are so close u could see the hair on someones crack. Have fun selling those. Maybe Johanna the Devil can make a sweet deal and then switch it back..
Everyone else is right if Toll would purposly hide a Mold issue what else would they hide?
They just shot theirselves in the foot.
6:16 AM on May 6th, 2009
When you buy that condo in those buildings next to the promenade they have to disclose what lies next to those units. Before all they had to say was that is would be a “pedestrian plaza” because there were no plans on the books. Now they have to tell prospective buyers what will be built here. The funny thing is that they aren’t selling those units now and if people saw progress they would probably be more willing to buy those units. Why would I buy one of those now if all I was going to see is dirt for years. At least if the buildings are there I can make an edjucated descision say I will live with that structure there. I don’t think Toll has thought this through very well. They have 2 full buildings to sell at a rough guess of 100 units. That is how long you will be waiting for the Promenade
8:09 AM on May 6th, 2009
I suggest you guys give this news to the local media and papers so to expose Toll Brothers for what they are, without negative comments from me, Bad people, bad companies usually will be shown for what they are in the long run.. Im sad to hear about this problem with the mold, and Promenade. To the gentle man who thinks living near a park and having homes all around is living in a dream if he wants some value. There are enough parks around us, we need retail and businesses to make an area grow. We will have two huge parks on both sides of us. The promised Promenade would make home prices stabilize, go up and create a community.
Im truly sickened for the families that have gone through this mold situation and then have Toll’s lenders not follow through..
10:27 AM on May 6th, 2009
I’ve always held Toll as being in the upper echelon of home builders. I no longer think so, it is near the bottom with KB homes etal.
10:31 AM on May 6th, 2009
Maybe Toll is playing the card that if they delay the Promenade enough, both Charter and the City will be to tired of having weed and dirt their they give in and rezone for more Condos and Apartments “yippee, woohooo!!”. By the time all this plays out in 5-6 years, the housing market would have rebounded and Toll would make out handsomely building more condos there after purchasing the parcel from the Frustrated Charter Properties at dirt cheap bargain. The Promenade become The Condonade by Toll Brothers.
9:31 AM on May 8th, 2009
Has anybody else heard what happened at the city meeting or what the status of the promenade
9:48 AM on May 8th, 2009
Due to lack of low-cost housing in Dublin, and our city’s strong desire to attract more low-income renters, the Promenade has been rezoned to allow for Toll Brothers newest high-density housing, code-named HDHousing— Please see this link for an example of what to expect:
http://thecureservicegroup.info/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/capsule-hotel.jpg
10:59 AM on May 8th, 2009
I suppose until we hear the official word about this case, we have to have a sense of humor about what Toll Brothers is doing. Maybe Toll Brothers will start planting some endangered species at the Promenade plot in an effort to block the development once all the due diligence has been performed for real the second time around. I wonder what Club Sports must be thinking now (um…yeah…about that…we will be looking elsewhere for our next site. Bye Dublin).
4:35 PM on May 9th, 2009
Low income renters is the last thing Dublin needs more off.
I was told Pleasanton pays just so they dont have to deal with sec8!
3:41 PM on May 12th, 2009
Toll Brothers went from the favorite poster child of Dublin, building supposedly top notch quality homes and neighborhoods and being a good citizen of Dublin. Now they’ve managed to become enemy NO. 1 in the eyes of Dublin Residents!!! With this new distinction for Toll Brothers in Dublin, more and more are being exposed about their mediocre, poorly built products. We will make sure other communities in CA are aware of this lousy company when Toll Brothers come knocking and wanting to build homes there. Go back to the East Coast where you belong Toll Brothers!!
3:00 PM on May 14th, 2009
Don’t even get me started on Toll. We’re first time home buyers in Dublin, and although Toll makes plenty of fabulous claims- they do not follow thru. Their customer service is terrible, they promise things that they never deliver, and when it comes down to it- all they want is your money. We moved in recently and I’m currently trying to get contact info to get ahold of upper management and voice some concerns. I must say- we do love the condo- but like others have said- not sure dealing with this unethical company is worth it.
9:43 PM on May 14th, 2009
Only word of mouth here: A little birdie told me that when Toll decided not to purchase the option on the East Sorrento unit, the Lins were none too happy. Toll was given one week to move all equipment/trailers off the promenade lot. While this was certainly within their rights, it came off as a “fudge you” to Toll (and was probably intended as such). Anyway, this attempt to block the Promenade might be Toll’s response. IF ANY OF THIS INFO IS INCORRECT, PLEASE CORRECT IT. AS I SAID…JUST A RUMOR.
9:51 PM on May 14th, 2009
Hi Anonymous on May 14, 2009 9:43 PM – if this is true, then this would seem to fit with the fact pattern and other speculation surrounding Toll’s efforts to block construction of The Promenade. Thank you for sharing this update.
Thx, John Z.
6:07 PM on May 20th, 2009
The real reason Toll blocked this was in the last approval process TOll nor the homeowners were in formed like they should have been. 2 things on this. If they proposed 2 floors of parking underground and 2 above then TOll wouldn have considered it. The original FAR and density on the property that was originally proposed was far less than what it was on the final approval almost 2 x more. Also all of the paseo walks and intersectiosn athat were originally desgined around the property wouldn’t work with the nesw scheme and was not what was orignially intended. This is why Toll stepped in. As much as you think Toll is a bad builder This company has done a lot for the City of Dublin to make it a better place.
8:48 AM on May 21st, 2009
Anonymous May 20, 2009 6:07 PM (AKA Toll Representative),
I find it hard to believe that Toll Brothers stopped the project, because it wanted two floors of underground parking. I challenge you to show the citizens of Dublin where in the official documents Toll had expressed that alternative to our City Staff, Planning Commission, or the City Council. Everyone knows Toll Brothers has a direct line to City Hall and to Charter Properties, so for you to make these outrageous claims is ludicrous at best. Really. After all, Toll Brothers did throw those parties for former mayor Janet Lockhart and current mayor Tim Sbranti, so I am sure as long as what Toll Brothers really wanted is within reason, everyone in City Hall would have bent over backward to accommodate. So basically, you told us nothing about the REAL reasons behind Toll Brothers’ machination. Let’s see if you still feel the same way after Toll Brothers lays you off. Perhaps we will see a lot more damning documents about this unethical builder like those about the mold class action lawsuit.
10:32 AM on May 21st, 2009
Anonymous on May 21, 2009 8:48 AM, I wouldn’t waste my time with Toll’s attempt at damage control. The beauty of this blog site is that people can log what they know here and share with others. All I remember about the underground garage was that even one level is considered too costly. I don’t appreciate how Toll damage control suggested that it alone is looking out for the interest of Dublin and thus implying that our PC and CC are not. How dare a developer show such disrespect for our elected and appointed officials. The fine citizens who serve on the commission and council do so out of their sense of duty. For a for-profit entity to attack them in such a dastardly manner is just plain wrong. I am glad they are not staying around for Sorrento East. Good riddance.
12:24 PM on May 21st, 2009
Ditto on the last two comments regarding Toll.
I would like to add that they are waiting for Charter and the City to give up the idea of the Promenade so they can swoop in and obtain the parcels cheaply and build their Condonade instead along Grafton. Making a huge profit from land they bought cheap and selling the condos when the market rebounds. Worst yet they’ll build another large scale affordable apartment complex and claim they are doing Dublin a favor as a good citizen to provide housing for the you know what.
1:47 PM on May 21st, 2009
For some of our readers who are not well-versed in zoning jargon, the Around Dublin Team would like to point out that the Floor Area Ratio (FAR) is simply the total building square footage (building area) divided by the site size square footage (site area).
For example, an FAR of 2.0 would indicate that the total floor area of a building is two times the gross area of the plot on which it is constructed, as would be found in a multiple-story building.
5:05 PM on May 21st, 2009
Any advice or comments about the Milano detached homes? Any issues specific to these models, community restrictions/rules, ammenities (gym, pool, etc.)? We have one dog – is the community pet friendly or not?
Thanks.
12:43 PM on May 22nd, 2009
To the Milano Prospective Home Buyer,
I have not heard any specific issues from the folks who live in Milano, but I can assure you that the entire Dublin Ranch Villages and surrounding area are very pet-friendly. I hear from friends who live there that they do have issues with the pool, as there is a home owner who repeatedly holds parties with 20+ people, which is not allowed by the CC&R. The only HOA fee the Milano home owners have to pay is the $99, which goes toward the maintenance of the clubhouse and the grounds. One of the main complaints I hear is that their current landscaper sucks, and it's taken the association over 6 months to put together a call for proposal, because the CEO of Massingham, the management company, is good friends with the owner of our current landscaping company. As the summer season approaches, don't be surprised if you see home owners pulling the weeds around their homes.
As nice as the Milano homes are, I would not consider them to be true detached homes, as you will still be sharing a driveway with the other homes like the townhomes, so they will always be priced lowered compared to a traditional detached homes like the ones you see in Lennar's Sonata, Pulte's Verona, and Braddock & Logan's homes in Positano. Also, make sure you find out where the home owners keep their garbage bins. Details like that are never considered until it's too late. Also, when you make the offer, don't forget to figure in the uncertainty of the Promenade development. The prices you see right now include the Promenade as an amenity.
Finally, given the horror stories about the financing we have collectively learned, I highly recommend that you hire a really good real estate attorney who specializes in production home buying in addition to using a seasoned real estate agent. I didn't understand that piece of advice when I first read it somewhere online, but once I saw the reasoning behind it, it makes perfect sense. Those sales agreements are written in such a way to give production home builders all the advantage in any negotiations and arbitration. Even with a lawyer on your side, Toll Brothers will still have the advantage, but you can at least level the playing field a bit.
8:10 PM on May 25th, 2009
I have heard through the grapevine that the promenade issue between toll brothers and charter properties actually has to do with some underground piping near the proposed Phase I building site that charter wants toll brothers to pay to move before they break ground. Apparently there is some issue with who will pay for this as it will cost a significant amount of money. In an attempt to “force” charter properties to pay for at least some of the cost, toll brothers sued over a minor technicality. I have also heard that both parties are currently negotiating and it may not be as dismal as originally thought. I do not have all of the facts to this but thought this was an interesting angle that had not been discussed.
10:36 AM on May 26th, 2009
Until we hear and see more concrete information and or evidence regardign the root cause fo this delay, Toll Brothers is still considered the Bandit and bad for Dublin.
12:58 PM on June 8th, 2009
Toll/Moll Brothers does suck.
Read the truth about Toll Brothers…wow
http://tolltruth.blogspot.com/
1:11 PM on June 8th, 2009
Hi Anonymous on May 25, 2009 8:10 PM,
If that is the case then Toll should sue Charter properties to resolve the dispute with them. Why did they drag the city of Dublin into this?
Also, since the city is involved (which effectively means Toll is suing you and me) shouldn't the details of the litigation be made public?
12:16 PM on June 9th, 2009
We bought at the Terraces 4years ago & a big part of why we bought was: 1) the future PLANS & IMAGE of the Promenade: 2 story retail buildings along a PEDESTRIAN STREET & planted parking lot between the pedestrian street & the Terraces(ie NO CARS, NO LARGE PARKING GARAGE & NOTHING OVER 2 STORIES). 2) the overall zoning of the area was well planned out (I'm an Architect & a Planner).
While purchasing at the Terraces, Toll made it appear that Toll was building the Promenade…giving a new owner the feelign that the quality & planning considerations for the Promenade was being planned by Toll= false representation (an issue for another day).
So why is Toll Brothers holding up the promenade, something they originally supported? Because it isn't in sync with the original plans for the area & because the city hasn't the backbone to force the developer to change their plans. The NEW PLANS for the Promenade DO NOT IN ANY WAY REFLECT WHAT YOU SAW OR HEARD ABOUT THE PROMENADE WHEN YOU BOUGHT YOUR PROPERTY!!! Toll is holding up the process because YOU HAVE BEEN DUPED BY THE PROMENADE DEVELOPER & BY THE CITY OF DUBLIN. The pretty picture & nice plans that were in the Toll sales officea) SHOW A PEDESTRIAN STREET…not a vehicular street as shown now(safety issue), b)SHOW 2 STORY BLDGS not taller bldgs as shown now(creates big/deep shadows…ie mini-urban area= crime…which will add to recent crime in the area), c)PLANTED PARKING AREA BTWN THE SHOPS & HOUSING not the huge parking garage shown now (location & size =large shadow on adjacent properties + garages bring crime).
Everyone has been waiting so long for the Promenade to appear…however building the right Promenade, the illustration & plan that we saw when we purchased our homes, is worth waiting for.
Toll is taking the long term view & trying to fight for something that will infact increase our property values & bring a safer -pedestrian friendly environment to our community. They are fighting for the image & plan we were all sold on (not developers money-hungry dark & crime inviting design they are trying to build).
I'm a resident & I don't support the new plans.
12:29 PM on June 9th, 2009
Oh dear, another Toll Troll. Funny how the Toll Trolls are always late to the game. The discussion has moved to here:
http://www.arounddublinblog.com/2009/06/why-would-toll-brothers-sue-to-block.html
Most of the people who bought four years ago have sold their condos, rented them out, or been foreclosed on. Stop with the posing already. Suing all of us is not going to get you your deposit money back from Charter.
12:39 PM on June 9th, 2009
I want to follow up on the development on the south side of dublin blvd: the big high-rise condo & office project that is now delayed.
To clarify: the city of Dublin did not delay them..in fact they were more than willing to entertain & approve the plans until there was a public meeting where owners at the Terraces voiced concerns & noted that zoning in the area did not allow for the projects to be built as proposed. Because statements made at these meetings are public record, once in the public record they become an item that later on can be used in litigation. IE The project had to stop because the public pointed out that the developer's proposal did not meet zoning designations & exceeded reasonable height restrictions, would exacerbate traffic & impact pedestrian safety along dublin blvds sidewalks (what sidewalks: exactly my point).
Without statments in the public record: you have no means of recourse.
HOw this relates to the Promenade: If a public meeting is not held = THERE IS NOTHING IN THE PUBLIC RECORD that can force the hand of the city to take action & can give home owners material for future litigation against the Promenade developer.
So why wasn't there a public meeting for the promenade? Perhaps the developer saw what happened to the Lins re the property south of Dublin Blvd & 'convinced' the city that no public meeting was needed.
Now you ask why Toll is suing? Perhaps because the City of Dublin did not do its due diligence & provide the public it serves with the ability to voice its opinion/concerns as part of the public record. In such a meeting: FAR would have come up & certainly forced the developer to lower the # of floors, excessive shadows & vehicular traffic patterns/plans/parking as they relate to safety would have changed the developers plans as well.
I may not always agree with Toll….but we, home owners & tax paying citizens of the City of Dublin deserve better…& if Toll's actions force the city to initiate a public meeting & forum, I'm all for it.
This is our city, these are our homes, & it is our right to be heard!
12:55 PM on June 9th, 2009
Can we stop with the name calling already?
Anonymous June 9, 2009 12:39 PM sounds like a project manager. If Toll wants to sway public opinion their way, they should just upload documents that support their case. Residents like me are anxious for information. The more the better. Let us decide who is right and wrong for ourselves.
John, excellent reporting on this litigation. I look forward to what you have to say next.
1:35 PM on June 9th, 2009
To the person who thinks that there were no public meetings on this should go look at the records. On the city website, or on this blog. People were made aware of all the planning meetings, in fact I believe after the project was approved there was another meeting because someone filed a complaint regarding the parking study. To say this was done without anyone knowing is not true. See all the posts below. I can probably find more, but I didn't have time. All I know is that Toll never complained anywhere. Maybe John can also find his past links
October 14 planning com
http://www.ci.dublin.ca.us/DepartmentSubLevel2.cfm?PL=gov&SL=comm&dsplyID=1140
November 12 planning com
http://www.ci.dublin.ca.us/DepartmentSubLevel2.cfm?PL=gov&SL=comm&dsplyID=1146
December 9th planning com
http://www.ci.dublin.ca.us/DepartmentSubLevel2.cfm?PL=gov&SL=comm&dsplyID=1152
Mayor meetings where individual complained go down to the promenade section
http://www.ci.dublin.ca.us/DepartmentSubLevel2.cfm?PL=gov&SL=maycc&dsplyID=1162
2:23 PM on June 9th, 2009
Hi Anonymous on June 9, 2009 1:35 PM – as you note above, there were many public hearing and meetings discussing the revised plans for the Promenade. For a list of all the Aroun Dublin articles covering these meetings please check out this link – http://www.arounddublinblog.com/search?q=promenade
Thx, John Z.
2:38 PM on June 9th, 2009
Not to say you can't sue at anytime, but if I was a judge on this case the first thing I would look at would be the history and the dates from all the meetings and ask if and why no one from Toll ever objected or raised questions until the project had already started.
WE SUE for SPITE, Judge